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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by grizzle View Post
    I very much like the idea of giving people more leeway in the animals and crops. I don't know how the various server loads compare, but I would much rather just say "24 adult animals of any mixture, penned separately", vs this per-type limit thing. I never understood why that was necessary.
    That right there is why it was necessary. We get a lot of players who have no idea what's involved in running a large non-whitelisted public server. And that's ok
    The limitations on animals/trees/tiled soil/anvils/etc were set to make sure the server load doesn't exceed the available hardware resources. Without these rules people just build whatever they liked without any regard for themselves or other players. Towns had more resources than they knew what to do with. Every town member had their own set of anvils, animals, trees, etc. So basically they were wasting in-game and server resources.

    After we set the limits and started enforcing them server load came down to more acceptable levels. Because of that the server has been almost entirely lag free ever since. The only situations in which people experience lag nowadays is if someone has a poor connection to the server, if someone has a slow computer, or if someone breaks the rules.

    I almost sound like a parent saying this... The rules are for your own good

    As for your suggestion about players building "world wonders" to gain access to a teleporter. I think it's a nice idea, but like you said it would put us in an uncomfortable position. One that is also going to take up quite a bit of our time. Judging, giving feedback, dealing with disappointment, judging again, etc.
    Perhaps is we could find someone dedicated to this task who would stick around with us for a long time it would be feasible. Please continue the discussion

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneJ View Post
    The limitations on animals/trees/tiled soil/anvils/etc were set to make sure the server load doesn't exceed the available hardware resources.
    It was mainly the animal thing. The general idea of load I understood, after i saw it mentioned somewhere. But I didn't understand why we got to mix-and-match fruit trees and crops, but had specific per-type limits on animals.

    On both HC and regular, I had access to a one or two animal types, with the rest being farther than I wanted to mess with. I would have liked to have been able to raise more of those animals I had access to, in lieu of the other animal types. It sounds like the new system may possibly be more liberal as far as animal mix-match, but beyond that, could a town not 'exchange' part of their animal limit for fruit trees, or crops, and vice-versa, as long as the relative loads are balanced? I might gladly exchange animals for fruit trees, depending on the ratio.

    As far as wonders, I think the initial precedent would probably be helpful. After one qualifying wonder is built, other players could examine it to get a better idea of the scope they'll need to meet. And perhaps a sort of pre-judging could be done by other HC players? So if you get enough recommendations from players you take a look? These would need to be private, clearly, so as to avoid inter-player hurt feelings. And admins would still have the final say. Some general guidelines would help.
    Perhaps for instance, make it clear that simply being large of scope does not qualify (i.e. 14k railroads (sorry Larson) or 1k of simple walls around a town). The project needs to be detailed and well designed. Not Tenterro level necessarily, but more than just slapping together tons and tons of blocks. A grand wall could well be a component, in combination will a very well designed castle and in-theme town. But just by itself would not be enough.
    And yet conversely, having a well done in-theme town is not in itself enough. There has to be something epic in scope.

    Maybe this could be revisited later, after an idea is gotten of how HC will shake out - if there will be more players than before. If may be that it would take too much time if HC turns out pretty popular. Though with the pay-wall, and hardcore-ness, I think after the initial rush it probably will taper off a lot, and I'll bet relatively few towns would pursue an epic project. If treasure pile and monument are both routes to portals, then it gives people choices - some people just don't enjoy grinding out metal.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by grizzle View Post
    As for the beacon structure, is this a structure that you've come up with for code reasons Jiro? Or is it a manual thing where you inspect it, see it's in order, and place the teleport and beacon yourself? Because one of the things I like about the original proposal of ships is that it would increase the immersion and scenic-ness of towns. This beacon won't really do that. So is this stuff a hard requirement? Or could we, for instance, have the armor displayed on armor stands, and the weapons displayed on racks? Personally if I'm going to put in all that effort, I would rather have the stuff on display for visitors vs hidden in a chest. Furthermore, can we arrange the sheets however we like, perhaps incorporated into a structure? And what about something more showy than lead? Like platinum, which is harder to work anyway? And the gems, could we have them in picture frames? I just feel like it'd be better if people had more freedom in how the items were used, preferably on display. Now, if this is a code thing where it's going to search for that exact configuration before teleporting people, in order to make sure people don't place all that stuff and then take it back after you've placed the teleport, I understand, but I just wanted to suggest more freedom of creativity if possible.

    Furthermore, I think it would be good if there were a way for people to get a portal by having an epic construction project instead of colored steel. Something huge and amazing, to increase the prestige of hardcore. A colossus of Rhodes, a grand pyramid, or just the most amazing castle. I realize that would put the admins in the uncomfortable position of being the arbiters of what qualifies as an 'epic construction'. But again, I think the prestige of hardcore would be better enhanced via something visible from dynmap - a 200 square pyramid with sphynxes and epic interior, for instance - vs a few chests of colored steel.
    The beacon was made in a way that would facilitate easy inspection and would require the usage of high end / end tier items. I'm open to suggestions about different ways to implement it, but the requirements need to be similar. Another reason for the way it's setup is so I can lockette correctly filled chests. If people put armor on the stands, jems in frames, etc then people can just as easily remove them after I've set the portals.

    The reason I chose Lead sheets over Platinum is because it's a completely unused item. Platinum on the otherhand is used in the creation of lamps which is a requirement in the obelisk build.

    I like the idea of a superbuild for a portal, but I really don't think it can compare to the time and knowledge requirement for the high end / top tier items required. Sure getting all the colored steel items isn't too hard in the scheme of things, but how many people obtained all type exquisite grade gems? I don't think a superbuild can compare to the time requirement for obtaining those gems. I've made multiple superbuilds myself in TFC and they didn't take anywhere near as long as it took to obtain all the exquisite grade gems (and I was still missing one).

    Quote Originally Posted by grizzle View Post
    On both HC and regular, I had access to a one or two animal types, with the rest being farther than I wanted to mess with. I would have liked to have been able to raise more of those animals I had access to, in lieu of the other animal types. It sounds like the new system may possibly be more liberal as far as animal mix-match, but beyond that, could a town not 'exchange' part of their animal limit for fruit trees, or crops, and vice-versa, as long as the relative loads are balanced? I might gladly exchange animals for fruit trees, depending on the ratio.
    Fruit trees are actually the biggest offenders to server load.

    This is how it goes: People break the rules and plant more fruit trees than the allotted amount. -> The server starts to cycle timeouts multiple times a day (where it kicks everyone from the server). -> People start complaining and blame the server for lag, staff for not being on top of stuff, you name it. -> I chastise the offenders with an appropriate warning/ban. -> Server runs smooth and a week later everyone forgets and starts complaining about the limits again.

    We didn't arbitrarily choose the the limits if that's what people think. Besides the two months of just getting the tfc server on its feet, we also spent around 3 weeks of studying and testing the amount of tile entities that cause timeouts. Tile entities are basically everything, in TFC anyway, so it makes it difficult to limit since we don't want to limit people's chests, items, etc.

  4. #24
    Ok, so fruit trees are the worst, fair enough. I'd probably still exchange animals for more berry bushes (though maybe they're just as bad), but I get it, it's easier to just have uniform limits, rather than have to calculate exchange ratios, keep track of who is prioritizing what.

    Sounds like the beacon requirements are also kind of what I suspected - requiring the stuff to stay there and not be taken back. I guess at least it's not a strict code thing. With that in mind, I still don't see the harm in an option for different metal sheets. What if the requirement were more like a *minimum* of X sheets gold and Y sheets lead, but either of the sheet types can be upgraded to silver, nickel, platinum, or (black?)steel and above? I think all those metals are less common/more expensive than gold and definitely lead. I mean I get the idea behind involving all metals, but lead is found in more than half the stone types. If someone wants to jazz up their portal area with better metals, that are harder to find, why not allow it? If they want to plate the room in sheets of red and blue steel to show off, why not? The requirement could further be that every sheet and chest must be visible from sitting atop the spawn meters. So that might allow a bit more variety of configuration, while still making it easy enough to inspect? I don't know, maybe I'm the only guy who cares about this. But I always figure it's better to give more creative freedom where possible.

    I would think that a set of mega-build guidelines could fairly easily be come up with that would be roughly equivalent to top tier steel items for tier 1.
    The gem stuff I have no idea though as far as time those would take - I've not been playing THAT long. The gem requirements will definitely make the upper tiers hard to obtain, and give value to gems, which is great. But it's just rng grinding really. It doesn't take any skill or knowledge. It won't enhance the server the way a truly mega project would, imho.
    But in any case, I realize it'd put a lot on your guys' shoulders, and risk creating hard feelings due to the judgy nature of it. I'd volunteer to be 'that guy', but I'm sure I have nowhere near the clout for that. I do appreciate you guys taking the time to respond to my late-in-the-game posts.

  5. #25
    Lazy Idle Couch Potato Heptagon_ru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grizzle View Post
    If someone wants to jazz up their portal area with better metals, that are harder to find, why not allow it? If they want to plate the room in sheets of red and blue steel to show off, why not?
    Don't underestimate lead sheets, they are not easy to make. I tried lead hatches as decorative gun slots for a castle - since lead melts at low temperature, you can't just place ingots/double ingots/sheets into the forge and forget. You need to keep track on the temp and therefore make them one by one. At least it is as I remember my experience.

    Also - when someone wants to show off, they can add anything they desire around the basic structure. The Jiro's core will be easy to check for staff, and the magnificent shiny additions around it can serve as city's wealth display.
    I.e. as soon as the purpose of the shiny additions/replacements becomes "to show off", it can be done separately from the teleport core.
    Last edited by Heptagon_ru; 30th December 2015 at 14:12.

  6. #26
    That's true on the lead sheets, but by the time you're doing all the colored steel stuff, it feels to me like a sideshow, really. Sheets are the easiest thing once you get the formula, because they're used so much. Finding the formula is the hard part, but after that it's not an issue.

    And ya, people can do everything however they want surrounding but...I mean praise Jiro and all, but personally I find it not very attractive, to the point it would *detract* from the aesthetic I would want to go with. It's not so much about the setting, as the *detraction* from the setting for me. And I mean, in the end it's minor, I'll roll with whatever. I just wanted to get the suggestion out there, in case it wasn't a big deal to accommodate.

    Although now that I think about it...the portals must be entirely separate things from the beacon, like nether portals right, since the one beacon contains all the requirements for all 3 portals? I guess if the portals are separate and can be placed wherever (not necessarily in sight of the beacon), I can just hide the beacon somewhere, although there's still that light shaft. Can the beacon light part be placed somewhere separate from all the other stuff? If the light and portals are all flexible in placement then nevermind my quibbles, the rest can be hidden.

  7. #27
    One pro to lead or platinum sheets is that no sane people will have mined it yet so nobody has a head start on that material and people will trot off to prospect it.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by grizzle View Post
    Although now that I think about it...the portals must be entirely separate things from the beacon, like nether portals right, since the one beacon contains all the requirements for all 3 portals? I guess if the portals are separate and can be placed wherever (not necessarily in sight of the beacon), I can just hide the beacon somewhere, although there's still that light shaft. Can the beacon light part be placed somewhere separate from all the other stuff? If the light and portals are all flexible in placement then nevermind my quibbles, the rest can be hidden.
    I'd prefer to keep the whole obelisk as one complete setup. The beacon was more of a show off feature along with the iron/gold/diamond blocks and isn't really factored into the obelisk for any other reason since it's admin placed. I could just scrap the whole beacon and fancy block portions since that would require trust on the town's part not to break it and do mischievous things.

    And you are correct, the portals can be placed away from the obelisk structure. Currently I'm considering a requirement of the beacon being placed within the main town area plots (non outpost), and the portals being placed no further than 3 plots from the town's home plots.

    Also, if you have design ideas that incorporate everything I'd like in the obelisk feel free to show them. None of this will be implemented until the new server is ready for use so we have a lot of time to improve.

  9. #29
    I know for a fact that at least one person will roll into HC with their lead sheets made. I think we all know who :-) I'd guess more than that by the time the move actually happens. 32 sheets is just a single four vessels of regular ore. But it's fine, as long as portals can be elsewhere, I'll happily deal with whatever.

    Will non-town members be able to use the portals if they're within the town's area? Or do they have to be outside a claim for outsiders to use them? I think everyone would definitely love the showoff blocks. But honestly if we stick with lead and gold sheets, why not just allow them to also be kept in a chest with the other stuff, if desired? That's even more secure, as they can be locketted in. Not that there's much else to do with lead. Six chests and two anvils, easy to hide, beacon with extra blocks can be placed wherever? I do like the beacon. The shaft of light is a nice extra bit of prestige, plus a good guide. I mean I can hide the whole obelisk too, it's just easier to hide six chests and two anvils. I don't really have a design for an obelisk in mind per se. But I'd guess I'd go for a larger more open area, with plated walls and/or ceilings. It'll really depend on how my town design is. I'm not even 100% sure I'll start my own HC town honestly. But assuming I do, I think my personal preference at this point goes like this:

    1 everything in chests (except anvils) beacon and prestige blocks, and portals, can be placed elsewhere.
    2 Obelisk as shown, except that beacon, prestige, and portals can be elsewhere.
    3 obelisk as shown, portals elsewhere.

    As long as the obelisk is allowed to be hidden out of sight of the portals, I'll probably be a pretty happy camper.
    Last edited by grizzle; 2nd January 2016 at 03:58.

  10. #30
    Is the portal destination fixed forever or are there circumstances in which it can be relocated?

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